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	<title>Comments on: Banning Opera, part II</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/</link>
	<description>My thoughts and whatever about random topics.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Not Just Another Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Smileygenerator.us blocks Opera and Firefox</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-1530</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Just Another Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Smileygenerator.us blocks Opera and Firefox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 20:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-1530</guid>
		<description>[...] I guess this one beats environmentalchemistry episode by a mile(in case you are wondering what I am talking about please see this and this).I am angry with smileygenerator, but even more than that I am dissapointed to see such immature behaviour from them.Actually now if you want to use smileygenerator you would either have to use ua.ini or else fake your useragent using Proxomitron(whose principal task is to block ads and pop-ups).Not only that Maxthon is a webbrowser that comes with an adblocker included.But you can acces that site without the ads on Maxthon.Ironical.Isnt it? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I guess this one beats environmentalchemistry episode by a mile(in case you are wondering what I am talking about please see this and this).I am angry with smileygenerator, but even more than that I am dissapointed to see such immature behaviour from them.Actually now if you want to use smileygenerator you would either have to use ua.ini or else fake your useragent using Proxomitron(whose principal task is to block ads and pop-ups).Not only that Maxthon is a webbrowser that comes with an adblocker included.But you can acces that site without the ads on Maxthon.Ironical.Isnt it? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Random Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-151</link>
		<dc:creator>Random Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-151</guid>
		<description>Banning Opera, part III 	
In the great debate - or ruckus - about the reasons for banning Opera users from visiting web sites, the point is this: Unregistered Opera browsers using targeted ad banners from Google are (mis)using the content on the web pages without the owners consent. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Banning Opera, part III<br />
In the great debate - or ruckus - about the reasons for banning Opera users from visiting web sites, the point is this: Unregistered Opera browsers using targeted ad banners from Google are (mis)using the content on the web pages without the owners consent. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Petter</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-149</link>
		<dc:creator>Petter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-149</guid>
		<description>Just a correction, it should read: "Opera Forum members" not "Opera members". ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a correction, it should read: &#8220;Opera Forum members&#8221; not &#8220;Opera members&#8221;. <img src='http://dionaea.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Petter</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-148</link>
		<dc:creator>Petter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-148</guid>
		<description>" Personally, Iâ€™m getting close to concluding that it is something else, that has to do with the perception of â€œintellectual propertyâ€ and your rights."
 
 I would like to make a comment about this  ;) 
 
 IÂ´ve read the comments made by Ken Barbalace (Raccon) in the Opera Forums and how he tries to use the copyright term in order to back up his statements and, honestly, his approach to this is quite naive and irrational. He seems to completely ignore the fact that there are LAWS regulating the intellectual property. The problem is that he thinks that his "perception" of the copyright term is above the laws which regulate this issue. Some Opera members tried to explain him that Opera is not copying, redistributing  nor changing  the content of the webpage and therefore there is no way to claim that Opera  " continues it business practice of using other peopleâ€™s work for their own profit without permission" as he does.  He completely fails to understand this; he even claimed that displaying the content of a webpage in a browser is the same than redistributing that content (ignoring the fact there is no transaction involved and even if he is right, all browsers would be violating the copyright laws since all of them display webpages and therefore he should block them all).  
 
 He also seems to ignore the fact that the google ads (remember that not Opera users are using the google ads option, thereÂ´s a general banner option too, which is not related in any way with the content of the page, not to talk about registered users) are displayed in a toolbar, which is part of the browser, not the webpage. What the user does with the toolbars is not the publisher business. 
 
 Ken BarbalaceÂ´s webpage is available to everybody who wants to access the site with a browser (there is no need to use a suscription in order to read the content, his site is not protected by passwords; something that he could do and I wonder why he doesnÂ´t if he is so concerned about the intellectual property); Google, Yahoo and other search engines are indexing the content and people go to his site because of this (he doesnÂ´t pay to search engines for this esential service but, how ironic, he has no problem with this;quite hypocrite behaviour); browsers are a esential part of the web (he also conveniently ignores this fact) so there is no rational argument to justify his behaviour.
 
 As a side note I would like to say that thereÂ´s a Firefox extension that displays targeted ads by Google (same as the Google ads in Opera): Adbar   https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=217 
 
 Following Ken BarbalaceÂ´s (i)logic, ALL Firefox users should be blocked since there is no way to know if a FF user who access his site is using Adbar or not.  Hypocrisy...or just a zealot, not a surprise since he thinks that  "I have found Opera users in general to be a group that I'm better off without" (copied and pasted from the forums) ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Personally, Iâ€™m getting close to concluding that it is something else, that has to do with the perception of â€œintellectual propertyâ€ and your rights.&#8221;</p>
<p> I would like to make a comment about this  <img src='http://dionaea.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p> IÂ´ve read the comments made by Ken Barbalace (Raccon) in the Opera Forums and how he tries to use the copyright term in order to back up his statements and, honestly, his approach to this is quite naive and irrational. He seems to completely ignore the fact that there are LAWS regulating the intellectual property. The problem is that he thinks that his &#8220;perception&#8221; of the copyright term is above the laws which regulate this issue. Some Opera members tried to explain him that Opera is not copying, redistributing  nor changing  the content of the webpage and therefore there is no way to claim that Opera  &#8221; continues it business practice of using other peopleâ€™s work for their own profit without permission&#8221; as he does.  He completely fails to understand this; he even claimed that displaying the content of a webpage in a browser is the same than redistributing that content (ignoring the fact there is no transaction involved and even if he is right, all browsers would be violating the copyright laws since all of them display webpages and therefore he should block them all).  </p>
<p> He also seems to ignore the fact that the google ads (remember that not Opera users are using the google ads option, thereÂ´s a general banner option too, which is not related in any way with the content of the page, not to talk about registered users) are displayed in a toolbar, which is part of the browser, not the webpage. What the user does with the toolbars is not the publisher business. </p>
<p> Ken BarbalaceÂ´s webpage is available to everybody who wants to access the site with a browser (there is no need to use a suscription in order to read the content, his site is not protected by passwords; something that he could do and I wonder why he doesnÂ´t if he is so concerned about the intellectual property); Google, Yahoo and other search engines are indexing the content and people go to his site because of this (he doesnÂ´t pay to search engines for this esential service but, how ironic, he has no problem with this;quite hypocrite behaviour); browsers are a esential part of the web (he also conveniently ignores this fact) so there is no rational argument to justify his behaviour.</p>
<p> As a side note I would like to say that thereÂ´s a Firefox extension that displays targeted ads by Google (same as the Google ads in Opera): Adbar   <a href="https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=217" rel="nofollow">https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=217</a> </p>
<p> Following Ken BarbalaceÂ´s (i)logic, ALL Firefox users should be blocked since there is no way to know if a FF user who access his site is using Adbar or not.  Hypocrisy&#8230;or just a zealot, not a surprise since he thinks that  &#8220;I have found Opera users in general to be a group that I&#8217;m better off without&#8221; (copied and pasted from the forums) &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Svein KÃ¥re</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-146</link>
		<dc:creator>Svein KÃ¥re</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-146</guid>
		<description>I've been reading, reading and reading, and getting a clearer picture of the problem. Well, the problem as I see it - it's obvious that there are disagreements about what it is and where it lies; is it that Opera doesn't give an option for webmasters to opt out? Or that it can't be distinguished between registered and unregistered users? Or is it Google that is the source of the problem?

Or - maybe something else. Personally, I'm getting close to concluding that it is something else, that has to do with the perception of "intellectual property" and your rights. Which should hint towards the webmasters themselves (those who would block Opera) that is the problem.

I'll follow it up later when I'm ready, either in a comment or maybe a new post. (Trilogies seems to be popular, so why not a third part? ;))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been reading, reading and reading, and getting a clearer picture of the problem. Well, the problem as I see it - it&#8217;s obvious that there are disagreements about what it is and where it lies; is it that Opera doesn&#8217;t give an option for webmasters to opt out? Or that it can&#8217;t be distinguished between registered and unregistered users? Or is it Google that is the source of the problem?</p>
<p>Or - maybe something else. Personally, I&#8217;m getting close to concluding that it is something else, that has to do with the perception of &#8220;intellectual property&#8221; and your rights. Which should hint towards the webmasters themselves (those who would block Opera) that is the problem.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll follow it up later when I&#8217;m ready, either in a comment or maybe a new post. (Trilogies seems to be popular, so why not a third part? ;))</p>
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		<title>By: serven</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-144</link>
		<dc:creator>serven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-144</guid>
		<description>After reading the Opera Forum thread about this issue I think everything is clear now.

This person has some kind of vendetta against Opera users (check his later posts there).

According to what I have read in that thread itÂ´s clear that he has failed to provide a logic explanation for his behaviour. He has tried to justify his action with very poor arguments and has contradicted himself so much that itÂ´s difficult to not to think that this is something personal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading the Opera Forum thread about this issue I think everything is clear now.</p>
<p>This person has some kind of vendetta against Opera users (check his later posts there).</p>
<p>According to what I have read in that thread itÂ´s clear that he has failed to provide a logic explanation for his behaviour. He has tried to justify his action with very poor arguments and has contradicted himself so much that itÂ´s difficult to not to think that this is something personal.</p>
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		<title>By: subtitles</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-143</link>
		<dc:creator>subtitles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-143</guid>
		<description>At which point I'd just like to say - suck it up. Or if you prefer, boo hoo, poor baby. A toddler, similarly, has the right to protest it's rattle being taken away. Cue the pointing, laughing and mocking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At which point I&#8217;d just like to say - suck it up. Or if you prefer, boo hoo, poor baby. A toddler, similarly, has the right to protest it&#8217;s rattle being taken away. Cue the pointing, laughing and mocking.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Barbalace</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-142</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Barbalace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-142</guid>
		<description>Giacomo,

I don't target clueless users.  My point was to counter a common claim that Opera users are more valuable users because they are better informed.  Yes by percentage, Opera users and Firefox users will be better informed about the dangers of surfing the Internet and more computer savvy.  However, as my target audience is not computer savvy individuals this quality doesn't provide any inherent advantage from my advertiser's perspective.

One should not mistake computer savvy with better educated these two things don't equate.  I know very well educated computer users who are not at all computer savvy, and I know very computer savvy individuals who are poorly educated.  No browser has a monopoly on the well educated.

In regards to my protest being an exercise in jousting windmills.  It is never an act of futility to stand up for what one believes.  The moment an individual or group does not stand up for their rights is the moment another group or individual will trample those rights.  This is what Opera Software is doing with their business practices.  They are trampling on the rights of others to make profit and are counting on those whose rights are being trampled to simply take it rather than risk being ridiculed or alienating others.

What Opera is doing is wrong.  Yes I have to expend a great deal of energy and resources fighting this battle and no not everyone will agree with my point of view.  If, however, this is what I must do to stand up to what Opera Software is doing, then it is what I will do.  For as long as Opera Software continues it business practice of using other people's work for their own profit without permission, I will continue my protest. 

If you want to think I'm crazy, go ahead and think that. People should know, however, that I am not alone in my beliefs.  There are others who share in my beliefs and block Opera users; however, they choose to remain at a lower profile than I do.  It is not uncommon for me to receive private messages in forums in regards to threads on this issue thanking me for taking a stand or informing me that they are grateful for my efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Giacomo,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t target clueless users.  My point was to counter a common claim that Opera users are more valuable users because they are better informed.  Yes by percentage, Opera users and Firefox users will be better informed about the dangers of surfing the Internet and more computer savvy.  However, as my target audience is not computer savvy individuals this quality doesn&#8217;t provide any inherent advantage from my advertiser&#8217;s perspective.</p>
<p>One should not mistake computer savvy with better educated these two things don&#8217;t equate.  I know very well educated computer users who are not at all computer savvy, and I know very computer savvy individuals who are poorly educated.  No browser has a monopoly on the well educated.</p>
<p>In regards to my protest being an exercise in jousting windmills.  It is never an act of futility to stand up for what one believes.  The moment an individual or group does not stand up for their rights is the moment another group or individual will trample those rights.  This is what Opera Software is doing with their business practices.  They are trampling on the rights of others to make profit and are counting on those whose rights are being trampled to simply take it rather than risk being ridiculed or alienating others.</p>
<p>What Opera is doing is wrong.  Yes I have to expend a great deal of energy and resources fighting this battle and no not everyone will agree with my point of view.  If, however, this is what I must do to stand up to what Opera Software is doing, then it is what I will do.  For as long as Opera Software continues it business practice of using other people&#8217;s work for their own profit without permission, I will continue my protest. </p>
<p>If you want to think I&#8217;m crazy, go ahead and think that. People should know, however, that I am not alone in my beliefs.  There are others who share in my beliefs and block Opera users; however, they choose to remain at a lower profile than I do.  It is not uncommon for me to receive private messages in forums in regards to threads on this issue thanking me for taking a stand or informing me that they are grateful for my efforts.</p>
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		<title>By: Giacomo</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-138</link>
		<dc:creator>Giacomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-138</guid>
		<description>Ken, sorry, but with your protest you simply show a fundamental ignorance of how the web works. The simple truth is: the broadcaster does NOT control the medium. Today is Opera and Adblock and Greasemonkey, tomorrow it might be the Google/Yahoo-bar or some other plugin that even IE allows... and what about selective filtering via wget &#38; proxies? As it is, I can simply fetch your site with a proxy acting as IE, and read it. This is a fight that is not worth your time, really, because you look like a lunatic Quixote running against huge windmills, more or less like that other clown Dave Winer complaining against Greasemonkey. You are just alienating the more tech-savvy readers... but anyway you admit shooting only for the clueless IE users that might click on banners, so why do you care anyway? I'm sorry, I find your attitude suspect (the word "SCO" and "Microsoft" come to mind, can't help it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, sorry, but with your protest you simply show a fundamental ignorance of how the web works. The simple truth is: the broadcaster does NOT control the medium. Today is Opera and Adblock and Greasemonkey, tomorrow it might be the Google/Yahoo-bar or some other plugin that even <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym> allows&#8230; and what about selective filtering via wget &amp; proxies? As it is, I can simply fetch your site with a proxy acting as <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym>, and read it. This is a fight that is not worth your time, really, because you look like a lunatic Quixote running against huge windmills, more or less like that other clown Dave Winer complaining against Greasemonkey. You are just alienating the more tech-savvy readers&#8230; but anyway you admit shooting only for the clueless <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym> users that might click on banners, so why do you care anyway? I&#8217;m sorry, I find your attitude suspect (the word &#8220;SCO&#8221; and &#8220;Microsoft&#8221; come to mind, can&#8217;t help it).</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Barbalace</title>
		<link>http://dionaea.com/blog/archives/2005/06/26/banning-opera-part-ii/#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Barbalace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dionaea.com/blog/?p=102#comment-136</guid>
		<description>Svein, that was a very fair post.  We may not fully agree, but I think you were fair.  I could ask for nothing more.

Your point about all web publishers opting out could be a valid point, but if so, it could speak volumes about the weakness of Opera's business model than the validity of demanding that Opera to provide the "opt-out" mechanism, it would mean that web publishers really don't appreciate Opera's business model, only they weren't as willing to take on Opera Software and suffer the wrath of Opera users the way I have.  If providing an opt-out out mechanism seriously hurt Opera's ability to generate revenue and viability as a company, it would mean is that Opera as a company couldn't survive on their own merits without profiting off of other people's works.  I'd like to think that Opera was a stronger company than that.  One would hope that advertising revenue only makes up a fraction of Opera's overall revenue; with user subscriptions and licensing agreements for handheld versions of their software making up the vast majority of their revenue.

With that said, even if Opera rolled out the option of disabling targeted RADs tomorrow, it would take a very long time for the majority of websites to opt out.  Many webmasters don't know about this issue and many others wouldn't care.  Sure, maybe big players like Yahoo would opt out, but maybe Opera could work out some kind of agreement with them.  Even so, there would still be plenty of smaller and non-commercial sites that wouldn't bother to do anything.

Making this change would mean that Opera would need to focus more on attracting advertisers in a similar fashion that it did prior to v7.23 in the fall of 2003.  Opera, however, has been around for ten years, and has only used content targeted advertising for less than two years. Surely they have the experience to make up for some of the lost revenue.  

One suggestion I have made previously was that Opera could target some ads based on the search phrases users enter into the search box on Opera's toolbar.  This would provide Opera with contextual advertising, without Opera using the content of web pages to target their ads.  Another suggestion would be to provide users greater incentives to register their browsers.  Opera Software produces a very good product, surly they could find a way to differentiate themselves and provide value added options that would encourage more users to register their copies.

In the end, there are ways to make up for any revenue losses from allowing web publishers to opt out of content targeted ads.  At the same time, it would help resolve an issue that will continue to be an impediment to web publishers embracing Opera and fixing their sites such that they function correctly on Opera.  Providing an opt-out option could create good will that would be worth a lot more than the advertising revenue Opera Software would lose.

Being realistic, I do not think Opera will address this issue in the near future. I have been waging my protest on different levels for over 18 months now, and I fully expect that I will still be protesting this issue for some time to come.

I realize Opera users will not always appreciate or agree with my protest; I simply ask that they respect my right to protest.  Yes I know I will be losing some good users, but this is a choice I have made and a loss I feel I must accept if I am to get Opera to redress my grievance.  If and when Opera addresses my grievance in a manner I am satisfied with, I will end my protest and embrace Opera on my websites.  Opera is after all a very good, very secure web browser.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Svein, that was a very fair post.  We may not fully agree, but I think you were fair.  I could ask for nothing more.</p>
<p>Your point about all web publishers opting out could be a valid point, but if so, it could speak volumes about the weakness of Opera&#8217;s business model than the validity of demanding that Opera to provide the &#8220;opt-out&#8221; mechanism, it would mean that web publishers really don&#8217;t appreciate Opera&#8217;s business model, only they weren&#8217;t as willing to take on Opera Software and suffer the wrath of Opera users the way I have.  If providing an opt-out out mechanism seriously hurt Opera&#8217;s ability to generate revenue and viability as a company, it would mean is that Opera as a company couldn&#8217;t survive on their own merits without profiting off of other people&#8217;s works.  I&#8217;d like to think that Opera was a stronger company than that.  One would hope that advertising revenue only makes up a fraction of Opera&#8217;s overall revenue; with user subscriptions and licensing agreements for handheld versions of their software making up the vast majority of their revenue.</p>
<p>With that said, even if Opera rolled out the option of disabling targeted RADs tomorrow, it would take a very long time for the majority of websites to opt out.  Many webmasters don&#8217;t know about this issue and many others wouldn&#8217;t care.  Sure, maybe big players like Yahoo would opt out, but maybe Opera could work out some kind of agreement with them.  Even so, there would still be plenty of smaller and non-commercial sites that wouldn&#8217;t bother to do anything.</p>
<p>Making this change would mean that Opera would need to focus more on attracting advertisers in a similar fashion that it did prior to v7.23 in the fall of 2003.  Opera, however, has been around for ten years, and has only used content targeted advertising for less than two years. Surely they have the experience to make up for some of the lost revenue.  </p>
<p>One suggestion I have made previously was that Opera could target some ads based on the search phrases users enter into the search box on Opera&#8217;s toolbar.  This would provide Opera with contextual advertising, without Opera using the content of web pages to target their ads.  Another suggestion would be to provide users greater incentives to register their browsers.  Opera Software produces a very good product, surly they could find a way to differentiate themselves and provide value added options that would encourage more users to register their copies.</p>
<p>In the end, there are ways to make up for any revenue losses from allowing web publishers to opt out of content targeted ads.  At the same time, it would help resolve an issue that will continue to be an impediment to web publishers embracing Opera and fixing their sites such that they function correctly on Opera.  Providing an opt-out option could create good will that would be worth a lot more than the advertising revenue Opera Software would lose.</p>
<p>Being realistic, I do not think Opera will address this issue in the near future. I have been waging my protest on different levels for over 18 months now, and I fully expect that I will still be protesting this issue for some time to come.</p>
<p>I realize Opera users will not always appreciate or agree with my protest; I simply ask that they respect my right to protest.  Yes I know I will be losing some good users, but this is a choice I have made and a loss I feel I must accept if I am to get Opera to redress my grievance.  If and when Opera addresses my grievance in a manner I am satisfied with, I will end my protest and embrace Opera on my websites.  Opera is after all a very good, very secure web browser.</p>
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